I was JUST about to say something like that, tho I don't think he meant any harm by the mocking. God knows I mock myself sometimes just because my exp is so little. But I agree that you can't really hold a 20-25yr old responsible for knowing everything a 40-50 yr old programmer, who was there fromt he beginning, does. Not really fair :) And, if I DID, then you would't HAVE a job, because that would mean my learning capacity and speed for learning are SO far ahead of yours, that you would then be "vaporware" :) So some clueless 20+ yr olds help keep that job for you. Otherwise they would just give us morons the job for less $$ thereby saving the company TONS of cash. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Alexander" To: Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Mensan seeks work > George, expect the problem to get worse as time goes on. There's just too > much information and it's growing more and more each day. A typical > 4-year CS degree can no longer teach everything that a "programmer" should > know, and most colleges just hit on the major themes, so these graduates > are going to have to fill in a lot of the gaps as they go along in the > workforce. You should feel fortunate that you started when things were > more simple, but instead of mocking the younger generation for not knowing > everything you feel they should know, try to educate them so by the time > they're 40 they will know everything. > ~M > > ------------ > The I Ching: > "Before the beginning of great brilliance, there must be chaos. Before a > brilliant person begins something great, they must look foolish to the > crowd." > > > On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, George Toft wrote: > > > Hi Doc, > > > > I've not seen your work. I don't know you. Do not be offended > > by what follows. > > > > Here's an example of the 40+ crowd: > > - An error manifests itself in the retrieval of data from the > > mainframe. He picks up the PRINTOUT (you know - ink on paper) > > of the code, and finds the error in about 15 minutes. > > > > > > Here are some examples of the under 30 crowd: > > - Write a java program that runs at 11:53pm via cron to process > > the day's transactions. Unfortunately, a [well documented] bug > > in the JDK (1.1.8) does not recognize Arizona's lack of Daylight > > Savings shift, so six months of the year the java program thinks > > it is 12:53am on the next day, and it cheefully tries to process > > all of the transactions that have not yet occured. This makes me > > wonder about the age of the programmer at Sun that didn't know > > that Arizona is not always in the Mountain Time Zone. > > > > - Let's retrieve the CGI query string and search it for a "?". > > Guess what happens if there isn't a query string: Null Pointer > > Exception. Java does not respond well to searching a null string. > > This 20-something never heard of the rule: Never trust anything > > another program sends you and didn't bother to add one line > > of code to see if the string was null. > > > > - Another 20-something violated a corollary of the above: Never, > > under any circumstance, trust a user. We service a Spanish > > speaking population. Guess what happens to LDAP when you feed it > > non IA-5 data, like an "n" with a tilde. It chokes with really > > geeky error message to the user. This guy never gave any thought > > to the Unicode character set, either. > > > > - An pair of almost 30-somethings wrote a program to accept data > > and pad it with spaces to fill the fields to form a fixed-length > > request header to a mainframe database. They assumed the User ID > > field was 10 characters. The program spec was 6-20 characters. > > Guess what happened when the first 11 character user ID was entered: > > It shifted all of the other fields right one space and the query > > blew up. I know we can figure out the faults here (not > > programming to the spec, not checking the data, improper > > testing). > > > > - Yet another 20-something (with 8 years experience) had no clue > > what the end of line terminator was for various operating systems. > > This was a shame since he was writing code on a Unix platform > > that wrote data for an NT system to process. Unix uses 0x0A and > > NT/DOS uses 0x0A0D. The NT system saw only one line in the file > > instead of the several hundred lines that the Unix program put in > > it. I tried to discuss this with him, and he had no clue what > > hexadecimal was. I had to send him references from the > > introductory section of the Java documentation that explained > > EOL terminators, and I had to send him hex dumps of good and bad > > data. > > > > - Another 20-something wrote a program that retrieved information > > from a database. If the query returned a null (data did not > > exist), or there was no connectivity to the database, the exact > > same error message was displayed. When she finally connected > > to the database, she kept getting the same error. Oh wait, > > there's no data in the database. That only took 4 days to isolate. > > It would have only taken a few hours to fix if she actually took a > > few minutes to create two different error messages. > > > > I taught networking for 4 semesters at the University of Hawaii. > > The first class was always spent teaching Binary Math so they > > could understand basic IP networking, like subnet masks. The > > school's curriculum did not teach binary math. I had almost > > 100 20-somethings go through my classes learn what a bit > > was, and what a bitwise AND was only because I made them. > > Otherwise, they would have graduated with a CIS degree without > > having ever performed any binary math. > > > > Doc, I sincerely hope you don't do this this level of work. When > > I was studying Computer Science, these pitfalls were preached in > > the 100 and 200 level classes. Maybe you and I came from a really > > good school, or perhaps the programmers I deal with came from > > bad schools. Maybe because I'm an old fart, that my school focused > > on the basics because that's all we had - OOP hadn't been invented > > yet. It seems that schools now are so focused on Web and OOP > > technologies that they don't have time to teach the basics like > > binary math, bit operations, and data checking. Maybe that's > > why the 20-something programmers at Microsoft still write code > > susceptable to buffer overflows - another pitfall that was > > crammed into my head in 1979. > > > > Or maybe I just expect too much from someone who has a degree in > > Computer Science (like knowing how a computer works), and I become > > very disappointed when that doesn't happen. > > > > I would like to say these are isolated incidents, but this is what > > I see every week. Different problem, different programmer, same > > recurring theme. I won't even go into the 24 year olds from > > [over]PriceWaterhouseCoopers with "5 years experience." OK, they > > count funny - I didn't know college homework assignments counted > > as experience. > > > > Even More Jaded and Searching for Some Alcohol, > > > > George > > > > > > "Dr. Ghastly" wrote: > > > > > > I'm Under 30. I don't consider myself clueless. > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > Once you start down the dark path, forever will it > > > dominate your destiny, consume you it will... > > > ****************************************************************** > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "George Toft" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 5:49 PM > > > Subject: Re: Mensan seeks work > > > > > > > I'm 50-50 on that issue. Last job would hire based on ability, regardless > > > > of paper. Current one requires paper to set foot inside. From what I've > > > > seen of programmers, if they're under 30, they're still clueless, degreed > > > > or not (flame suit on). > > > > > > > > George > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Dr. Ghastly" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention that most places, my company especially, consider 2-3 > > > years > > > > > experience equivalent to a degree. > > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > Once you start down the dark path, forever will it > > > > > dominate your destiny, consume you it will... > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "George Toft" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 12:11 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: Mensan seeks work > > > > > > > > > > > I second that. We just lost a guy because he claimed to have a > > > Bachelor's > > > > > > Degree when he did not. It only took them a week to figure it out. > > > He > > > > > > was a contractor for six months, so he knew his stuff. When there is > > > > > > an abundant supply of talent, you can be choosy. When there is a > > > scarcity > > > > > > of talent, you take whatever comes your way. You know where we are > > > right > > > > > now. . > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > George > > > > > > > > > > > > "Dr. Ghastly" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, considering the work your looking for, I wouldn't consider > > > lying. > > > > > The > > > > > > > company I work for does EXENSIVE background checks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > Once you start down the dark path, forever will it > > > > > > > dominate your destiny, consume you it will... > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Trent Shipley" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:14 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Mensan seeks work > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've seen really high numbers about lying on resumes. I suspect > > > that > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > usually get away with it. Of course, if you don't then it can > > > really > > > > > bite > > > > > > > > you in the ass--especially if you claim to be an experienced > > > surgeon > > > > > or > > > > > > > > litigator. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, another alternative is to lie about your > > > > > > > > > experience if you really know your stuff, but that usually comes > > > > > around > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > bite you in the ass. > > > > > > > > > ~M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - > > > PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > > > > > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > > > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail > > > doesn't > > > > > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > > > > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail > > > doesn't > > > > > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. > > > > > > > > > > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > > > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't > > > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. > > > > > > > > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > ________________________________________________ > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't > > > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. > > > > > > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. > > > > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > ________________________________________________ > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. > > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > ________________________________________________ > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss