There is a difference between flame, disagreement, discussion and love. Only flame is outside of a community and disagreement is not always unproductive. I did not see any of the below as a flame. Discussion, surely and disagreement, perhaps, but no flames. Alan Tuna wrote: > Why must we flame? Where is the love? The community? > > Joshua Zeidner wrote: >> >> >> On 8/29/07, *Alan Dayley* > > wrote: >> >> Joshua Zeidner wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 8/29/07, *keith smith* > >> > >> >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Add PLUG reserves the right to suspend or remove any account >> not in >> > compliance. >> > >> > >> > >> > And for my reference, WHO is PLUG? >> >> Straight to the point. WE are PLUG. >> >> There is a Steering Committee with a chair person but, they direct >> the >> group in a "benevolent dictator" style, sort of... The committee >> does >> makes sure stuff happens but has no real force of control. There >> are no >> by-laws or hard rules for the committee to lean on or point at. PLUG >> members follow or don't or grumble or yell as they see fit. >> >> So, your point is taken. If anyone is reserving the right to ban >> someone, who has that right and what are the criteria? I don't know >> the >> answer to that question. >> >> >> >> Honestly, I've been through this with one group already here in >> Phoenix. Usually if something happens someone doesn't like, they >> evoke the hidden and mysterious powers of moderation. Behind this >> somewhat ridiculous fig-leaf is some callow sheepish dude who has the >> password to the listserv. Very funny stuff in my view. >> >> I can say this: without clear leadership, there will be no clear >> purpose. If the person who recently offered up his grandfatherly >> opinion of the whole thing feels he is in the position of leadership >> here, he should make that abundantly clear. Not because I am >> challenging that leadership, I would just like to know who is running >> the show if anyone. >> >> I am in touch with Jason and I want to make it clear that it was not >> my intention to smear him. I do not make any claims against his >> character. He has made job postings on here after our work engagement >> and I made no attempt to interfere with that. I asked for a simple >> thing, and my intention here was to help clear up some confusion. I >> will make a sincere attempt to reconcile our disputes. >> >> In a general, I have recently moved out of Phoenix, primarily >> because I found the work environment here quite lacking. I could tell >> you quite a number of stories of my experiences around here[1], but >> there is a sufficient trail of listserv activity to point to some of >> my experiences. I think that Phoenix is currently facing some serious >> challenges as a city... and there are going to be inevitable changes >> whether they are welcomed by old-timers or not. I am quite sure that >> recent activity in financial markets has hit a number of people on >> this list directly. >> >> To address Joseph S.'s comments, for a list or a business venue to >> function correctly, you have to support buyers AND sellers, employers >> AND employees. I know that a number of regular contributors are of >> the hobbyist temperament, and see these kinds of points to be >> irrelevant and annoying. Banning feedback on job ads may seem like a >> great way to attract employers, because they feel safer in making >> whatever claims they please. The problem is, that the actual value of >> the ads degrade, and developers start to take a somewhat non-committal >> attitude towards working with these parties[3]. What phoenix >> currently needs is some kind of reputable venue for IT contracting, >> and I've voiced these concerns before[2]. Silicon Valley (where I >> currently reside) is literally bulging at the seams with >> out-of-control cost scales and somewhat of a vacuum of lucrative >> ideas. There are people here who make $300K a year designing >> applications to scrape your address book from your gmail account. >> Phoenix /does/ have potential in that sense, but it lacks the legal >> and commercial infrastructure to support the kind of commercial >> activity found in Silicon Valley. This infrastructure was built by >> folks not unlike yourselves, who just have a basic fascination with >> technology and its possibilities and decided make the government work >> for them instead of against them. >> >> Alan, I appreciate your attitude here- I think you are looking out >> for whats best for all the participants here. thanks. jmz >> >> >> >> >> [1] there is one person on this list that I responded to a job ad, and >> his 'CTO' refused to give me his last name! this person later was >> recommended by someone else on this list! >> >> [2] there are key deficiencies in AZ law as compared to that of CA >> law. some of the more important aspects are employment law and NCAs. >> >> [3] 'no flakes' is perhaps the most common request in web development >> job postings. >> >> >> >> >> Better yet, I don't want to need to know the answer to that question. >> >> In the history of PLUG that I know, no one has ever been banned. >> Ever. >> I'd much rather continue as it has all these years. Self policing >> works and this group is very good at it. >> >> I, for one, would not want the power to ban anyone. >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> >> >> >> -- >> .0000. communication. >> .0001. development. >> .0010. strategy. .0100. appeal. >> >> JOSHUA M. ZEIDNER >> IT Consultant >> >> ( 602 ) 490 8006 >> jjzeidner@gmail.com >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss