Oh, I agree -- we should talk about that sometime....<G>

At 08:12 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote:


>Only problem is you have government in business.
>
>------------------------
>Keith Smith
>
>
>--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > From: Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle@cox.net>
> > Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
> > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 7:58 PM
> >
> >
> > The city of Surprise has moved into a new
> > city hall complex,
> > and are turning the old offices / building into a
> > "start-up" or
> > incubator for new or emerging businesses.
> >
> >
> > lyle tuttle
> >
> >
> > At 07:50 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 1,
> > 2009 at 6:50 PM,
> > keith smith<klsmith2020@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I think what is really missing from this equation is
> > mentoring and
> > training.
> >
> >
> >   what I would like to see is some real support from
> > AZ government
> > to
> >
> > help make tech companies feel welcome here.  This
> > means:
> >
> >
> >   1) making the valley a good place not only to build
> > a company but
> > to
> >
> > build a *career*.  this means buy in from both sides
> > of the
> > equation.
> >
> > I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital
> > levels, but
> >
> > that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that most
> > existing
> > concepts
> >
> > are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build
> > a factory
> >
> > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but
> > technology
> >
> > requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job
> > market.
> > The
> >
> > needs are quite different.  The biggest issue with
> > starting a
> > company
> >
> > out here is finding people.  Where are all the
> > people?  in
> > CA.
> >
> > because it has a good job market.  If we can outsource
> > to India,
> > we
> >
> > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona.
> >
> >
> >   2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you
> > say mentoring
> > to
> >
> > really help stimulate technology development.
> > We've seen (at
> > least
> >
> > nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they
> > fail?  This means
> > real and
> >
> > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and
> > market.
> > A
> >
> > small investment in this area will yield returns in tax
> > base and
> >
> > property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona has
> > the potential
> > to
> >
> > pick up a lot of this commercial activity because
> > California is
> >
> > currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to
> > build your
> >
> > business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we
> > will lose
> > out
> >
> > big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are still
> > in
> > gridlock.
> >
> >
> >   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea,
> > he was
> > suggesting
> >
> > recently a green technology center near Phx center.  I
> > think thats
> > the
> >
> > direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I like the idea that folks are getting together to
> > network.
> > This is a really cool idea.  Even for non-technical
> > stuff like
> > finding out how people deal with customers, contracting,
> > book-keeping,
> > ETC.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > ------------------------
> >
> > > Keith Smith
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner
> > <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >
> > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in
> > PHX
> >
> > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list"
> > <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> >
> > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM
> >
> > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM,
> >
> > >> Alan Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
> >
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > >> > Joshua,
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > I put all your replies together in one long
> > document
> >
> > >> and reread them.
> >
> > >> > I am still confused a bit.
> > Enlightenment via
> > email
> >
> > >> rarely occurs.
> >
> > >> > However, I really want to understand your
> > position in
> >
> > >> this discussion.
> >
> > >> >  Let me summarize what I understand from
> > your
> >
> > >> replies.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your
> > comments]---
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - There is a small group or groups of people
> > who keep
> >
> > >> spinning off
> >
> > >> > communities using tired marketing
> > techniques.
> > This
> >
> > >> results in blogs
> >
> > >> > but not true communities.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with
> > existing
> >
> > >> structure and the
> >
> > >> > efforts of the past.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals
> > or
> >
> > >> purpose well, if at all.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn
> > and
> >
> > >> improve.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - These weak people need to address the
> > efforts of the
> >
> > >> past and
> >
> > >> > provide suggestions on how they can be
> > improved upon.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - Getting political support will provide
> > legitimacy to
> >
> > >> their efforts.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses
> > because
> >
> > >> of the relative
> >
> > >> > low cost and this will help improve things.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - You have first hand experiences of weak,
> > marketing
> >
> > >> fronted,
> >
> > >> > community building efforts.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand
> > ideas but get
> >
> > >> nowhere with them
> >
> > >> > because they are not real businesses.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - People at a co-working location or coffee
> > shop will
> >
> > >> not help you
> >
> > >> > with your business unless you pay them.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - Most people at co-working started their one
> > person
> >
> > >> business after
> >
> > >> > being laid-off and are not serious about
> > it.
> > They
> >
> > >> are really just
> >
> > >> > looking for the next full time gig.
> > This will get
> > in
> >
> > >> your way if you
> >
> > >> > have real business work to do.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we
> > are to
> >
> > >> make progress.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > - There are no serious incubators and
> > entrepreneurial
> >
> > >> meetups in
> >
> > >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC funding
> > of
> > companies
> >
> > >> so it's not
> >
> > >> > really entrepreneurial growth.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]---
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > I see validity in every one of these
> > comments.  I
> >
> > >> also think many of
> >
> > >> > them can be balanced by the other point of
> > view.
> > I
> >
> > >> still have
> >
> > >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too
> > much of my
> >
> > >> own thinking.
> >
> > >> > I want to learn more about your thinking.
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > 1. What does "deal with existing
> > structure"
> > mean?
> >
> > >>  This confuses me,
> >
> > >> > not know what structure you are talking
> > about.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>   Many user groups have been formed and
> > continue
> > to
> >
> > >> exist... how is
> >
> > >> <groupX> different?  other than its led
> > by
> >
> > >> person Y?  I mean dealing
> >
> > >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to
> > age 8
> >
> > >> trying to gain
> >
> > >> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse.
> > Perhaps I
> >
> > >> should spend
> >
> > >> more time drinking beer with these people?
> > Seeing the
> >
> > >> same small
> >
> > >> group churning out 'communities' is at
> > first funny, then
> >
> > >> annoying.  I
> >
> > >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless
> > that is
> >
> > >> noted
> >
> > >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.  I
> > really dont
> >
> > >> think Im being
> >
> > >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out
> > some valid
> >
> > >> observations.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you
> > referring?
> > I
> >
> > >> want to
> >
> > >> > understand the size and nature of efforts to
> > creating
> >
> > >> a community that
> >
> > >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not
> > work as
> >
> > >> planned.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>   I remember when I first came to AZ
> > that there was
> > an
> >
> > >> tech
> >
> > >> incubator...  what happened to it?
> > Which
> >
> > >> political agents currently
> >
> > >> support technology development in the
> > valley?  what do
> >
> > >> they think
> >
> > >> about your org?  these things are pretty
> > basic...
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > 3. What political support is needed?
> > You mean
> >
> > >> government funding of
> >
> > >> > events or startups or just verbal support or
> > what?
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>   I wouldn't expect funding, but it
> > would be good
> > to
> >
> > >> see some
> >
> > >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports my
> > opinions,
> >
> > >> that its really
> >
> > >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization.
> >
> > >> Without any good
> >
> > >> signposts, all this will produce are people who
> > get jaded
> >
> > >> and
> >
> > >> disaffected with regards to this location.
> > If you had
> >
> > >> something
> >
> > >> together I doubt that a good politician would turn
> > you
> >
> > >> down.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone
> > who is
> >
> > >> laid-off to have
> >
> > >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never
> > come to
> >
> > >> be?
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>   Its not.  As I said, I don't
> > find any of
> > these
> >
> > >> things highly
> >
> > >> offensive- but like you I am free to express
> > myself.
> >
> > >> Sorry if its not
> >
> > >> filled with abundant exaltations.
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might
> > help each
> >
> > >> other in business
> >
> > >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and
> > creating such a
> >
> > >> culture a good idea
> >
> > >> > or should such a goal not be pursued because
> > it is not
> >
> > >> practically
> >
> > >> > possible?
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>   sure.  good thread btw.
> > -jmz
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > Alan
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> >
> >
> > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua
> > Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > >> >> another great one:
> >
> > >> >>
> >
> > >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are
> > the
> > incubators,
> >
> > >> the "bootstrap"
> >
> > >> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial
> > meetups in
> >
> > >> Phoenix??? (crickets
> >
> > >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't
> > happening as a
> >
> > >> serious place where
> >
> > >> >> serious people are doing serious things.
> > No one
> >
> > >> wants it badly enough
> >
> > >> >> here. This paper should be having at
> > least one
> >
> > >> article a week on a new
> >
> > >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it.
> >
> > >> Helloooo????? is anybody out
> >
> > >> >> there...."
> >
> > >> >>
> >
> > >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to
> > stop
> >
> > >> pretending these
> >
> > >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local
> >
> > >> self-employed marketing experts
> >
> > >> >> are sufficient.  They are not.
> > We should
> > be
> >
> > >> asking the hard
> >
> > >> >> questions, not playing games.
> >
> > >> >>
> >
> > >> >> -jmz
> >
> > >> >>
> >
> > >> >>
> >
> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua
> >
> > >> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > >> >>>  another point, honestly reading
> > through
> > some
> >
> > >> of the criticisms on
> >
> > >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe
> > dwelling creed
> >
> > >> myself, I'd have to say
> >
> > >> >>> that many of those points are
> > accurate.
> > I've
> >
> > >> heard lots of
> >
> > >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big
> > ideas around here who
> >
> > >> never get anywhere with
> >
> > >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word press
> > template
> >
> > >> doesn't make you an
> >
> > >> >>> entrepreneur.
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>  "These are the same people
> > you see
> > at
> >
> > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any
> >
> > >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not
> >
> > >> entrepreneurs they are attention
> >
> > >> >>> (inappropriate term)."
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker
> > location
> > founders
> >
> > >> tout other people to
> >
> > >> >>> collaborate with and who can
> > "compensate
> > for
> >
> > >> your deficiencies". Do
> >
> > >> >>> you really believe someone that you
> > are not
> >
> > >> paying as an employee is
> >
> > >> >>> going to somehow compensate for your
> >
> > >> deficiencies and make your
> >
> > >> >>> business better? That kind of help
> > doesn't
> >
> > >> come without a price."
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>  oh so true...
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>  "You are more likely to
> > get a bunch
> > of
> >
> > >> people chatting to you over
> >
> > >> >>> your "work" so you wont be
> > concentrating
> > as
> >
> > >> you should to focus on
> >
> > >> >>> your business. Most of these people
> > started
> >
> > >> businesses after being
> >
> > >> >>> laid off. They are searching for a
> > new job and
> >
> > >> they aren't really
> >
> > >> >>> serious about their
> > "businesses" so how
> > do you
> >
> > >> expect them to give you
> >
> > >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these
> > the kind
> >
> > >> of people you need to
> >
> > >> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A
> > bunch of
> >
> > >> people half-as running
> >
> > >> >>> their "business" while
> > searching for a
> > real
> >
> > >> job and bothering you with
> >
> > >> >>> their expertise that got them laid
> > off in the
> >
> > >> first place."
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>  oh so so true...
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>  I would be willing to bet the
> > commenter
> >
> > >> above is an tried and true
> >
> > >> >>> successful entrepreneur.
> > Perhaps the
> > reason
> >
> > >> I am so skeptical is
> >
> > >> >>> because I know these kind of people
> > so well.
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>  sorry I really wish I could be
> > more
> >
> > >> supportive... but :  truth is
> >
> > >> >>> the foundation of progress.
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>  -jmz
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM,
> > Joshua
> >
> > >> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > >> >>>>  Alan,
> >
> > >> >>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>    Wish I had time
> > to respond to
> > all
> >
> > >> these points right now, not sure
> >
> > >> >>>> you read me the way I would
> > prefer
> >
> > >> however.  Its not so grave a
> >
> > >> >>>> warning, just getting the word
> > out on my
> >
> > >> first hand experiences.  Im
> >
> > >> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully
> > an
> >
> > >> impartial observer and someone
> >
> > >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ.
> >
> > >> >>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>  all the best, jmz
> >
> > >> >>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>
> >
> > >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM,
> > Alan
> >
> > >> Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
> >
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > >> >>>>> Josh,
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And I
> > don't
> >
> > >> understand the reason for such a strong warning.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> There are people in every
> > industry,
> >
> > >> government or community who wish
> >
> > >> >>>>> to fleece their
> > "community" for
> > their
> >
> > >> own profit instead of mutual
> >
> > >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick is
> > to find
> > the
> >
> > >> positive people and ignore the
> >
> > >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the same
> > filter with
> >
> > >> every event, group or blogger in the
> >
> > >> >>>>> lists and links I
> > provided.  I
> > don't
> >
> > >> expect bloggers or techies to be
> >
> > >> >>>>> any different, as if being
> > techie
> >
> > >> makes one a saint.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are
> > purely
> >
> > >> commercial or completely neglected,
> >
> > >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of
> > the groups or
> >
> > >> events or sites listed are lousy,
> >
> > >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing
> > excuses to
> >
> > >> sell something.  Some are not out
> >
> > >> >>>>> to create community but to
> > build a
> >
> > >> "kingdom" for their own benefit.
> >
> > >> >>>>> They are the duds.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> Let's look at a few
> > positives:
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank
> > Manifesto on
> >
> > >> their home page at
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like
> >
> > >> a great articulation of their
> >
> > >> >>>>> goals and purpose.  Ones
> > I
> > strongly
> >
> > >> support!
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto
> > came to be
> >
> > >> on Derek's blog at
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > 
> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
> >
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is
> > hosting:
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long
> > conference on
> >
> > >> developing for phones like
> >
> > >> >>>>> iPhone or Android
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour
> > Saturday
> >
> > >> event for kids 5-15 to learn
> >
> > >> >>>>> programming concepts
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes
> > for
> >
> > >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day
> > long
> >
> > >> conference on job searching and entreprenuership
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day
> > long
> >
> > >> conference on software development
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com
> > videos
> >
> > >> and discuss them
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of
> > open mic
> >
> > >> music and entertainment
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - The last
> >
> > http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and
> >
> > >> nearly
> >
> > >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix
> > campus with
> >
> > >> developers talking about code or
> >
> > >> >>>>> making code.  Free lunch
> > of pizza
> > and
> >
> > >> sub sandwiches was provided too.
> >
> > >> >>>>>  Put together by
> > volunteers.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - If you're into
> > Microsoft based
> >
> > >> development tech, the people who
> >
> > >> >>>>> maintain the
> > http://azgroups.com
> > site do an annual all-day event at
> >
> > >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium
> > Theater and at
> >
> > >> no cost to attendees.  Fine,
> >
> > >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but
> > it's put on
> >
> > >> by volunteers here in the valley
> >
> > >> >>>>> and a great way for people to
> > learn
> >
> > >> about things that improve their
> >
> > >> >>>>> career skills.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> > (
> > 
> http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx
> > )
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails
> > group has
> >
> > >> monthly meetings with around 30
> >
> > >> >>>>> regularly in attendance.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - The Java group is also well
> > attended
> >
> > >> every month.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - The third
> > http://podcampaz.com/
> >  is coming up in November, put on
> >
> > >> by
> >
> > >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost
> > (donation
> >
> > >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350
> >
> > >> >>>>> people attend last year (if I
> > recall)
> >
> > >> for two days of conference.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - The
> >
> > http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
> >
> > >> November
> >
> > >> >>>>> for the forth year.
> > This one
> > costs
> >
> > >> $100+ but should be as well
> >
> > >> >>>>> attended as last year with
> > 200+
> >
> > >> people.  Funded and organized in part
> >
> > >> >>>>> by a local venture capital
> > group.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - The first
> >
> > http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago
> > with
> >
> > >> a
> >
> > >> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance
> > and has
> >
> > >> grown to fill the 600 seat
> >
> > >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for
> > the Arts
> >
> > >> back in June.  The connections
> >
> > >> >>>>> made there live well past the
> > event.
> >
> > >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member
> > and the
> >
> > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last
> >
> > >> >>>>> time, though he was a bit
> > silly trying
> >
> > >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That
> >
> > >> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal
> > political
> >
> > >> support.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on
> > FS/OSS is
> >
> > >> being planned for October and
> >
> > >> >>>>> should be better than last
> > year. (Go
> >
> > >> Hans and team!)
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on,
> > though I could
> >
> > >> point out several purely social
> >
> > >> >>>>> events like
> >
> > http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and
> > west
> >
> > >> valley
> >
> > >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday
> > Morning
> >
> > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
> >
> > >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and
> > Eat and
> >
> > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
> >
> > >> >>>>> presentations every
> > Wednesday.
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> Now, having said all of that
> > "giddy
> >
> > >> blind optimism," I'd like to
> >
> > >> >>>>> understand how the above does
> > not
> >
> > >> address the efforts of the past or
> >
> > >> >>>>> provide improvement over past
> > efforts.
> >
> > >>  What are the real needs of the
> >
> > >> >>>>> community, if not some of the
> > above?
> >
> > >>  What would you suggest?  How can
> >
> > >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it?
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> Alan
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34
> > PM,
> >
> > >> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> >
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > >> >>>>>>  Alan,
> >
> > >> >>>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>>>    while I
> > appreciate
> > your post,
> >
> > >> and anyone who is making a sincere
> >
> > >> >>>>>> effort to build community
> > in
> >
> > >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some
> >
> > >> >>>>>> small groups who
> > periodically
> >
> > >> spawn off new 'communities' every month
> >
> > >> >>>>>> or so.  Look closely
> > and you
> > see
> >
> > >> the same few people with reused
> >
> > >> >>>>>> marketing recipes.
> > Lots of
> > blog
> >
> > >> and not too much community I'm
> >
> > >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their
> > efforts amount
> > to
> >
> > >> some simple branding and putting up a
> >
> > >> >>>>>> blog.  While these
> > things are
> > not
> >
> > >> really particularily offensive to
> >
> > >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat
> > detract from
> >
> > >> interest in the real needs of the
> >
> > >> >>>>>> community here.
> > Some of
> > these
> >
> > >> people are just outright idiotic and
> >
> > >> >>>>>> cannot deal with
> > existing
> >
> > >> structure and refuse to accept the history
> >
> > >> >>>>>> of efforts in the
> > past.  They
> >
> > >> lack any articulation of their goals and
> >
> > >> >>>>>> purpose.  Often
> > times they
> > have
> >
> > >> trouble organizing even small groups
> >
> > >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.  Dont
> > forget we've
> > had
> >
> > >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not
> >
> > >> >>>>>> smack down sincere
> > criticism in
> >
> > >> favor of giddy blind optimism,
> >
> > >> >>>>>> remember you can't
> > improve without
> >
> > >> criticism.  I would take these
> >
> > >> >>>>>> people much more
> > seriously if they
> >
> > >> addressed the efforts of the past
> >
> > >> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how
> > they are
> >
> > >> going to improve on them, or
> >
> > >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has
> > changed
> >
> > >> that will make them a success.
> >
> > >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real
> > political
> >
> > >> support would gain some legitimacy.
> >
> > >> >>>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>>>    on the
> > positive side,
> > I think
> >
> > >> Phoenix will attract a lot of
> >
> > >> >>>>>> technology business due
> > to its
> >
> > >> relative low cost and no doubt you will
> >
> > >> >>>>>> start to see community
> >
> > >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing some
> > real
> >
> > >> >>>>>> urban development
> > happening in Phx
> >
> > >> metro which has me very excited.  I
> >
> > >> >>>>>> think when the
> > macroeconomic
> >
> > >> problems are sorted out we will see
> >
> > >> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom.
> > Im
> > hoping
> >
> > >> that the average Arizonan gets involved
> >
> > >> >>>>>> in the political process
> > and make
> >
> > >> sure that the corruption stays out
> >
> > >> >>>>>> of city and state
> > politics.
> >
> > >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of
> >
> > >> >>>>>> positive development
> > trends in Phx
> >
> > >> metro.
> >
> > >> >>>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>>>  -jmz
> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> > >> >>>>>
> >
> > >> >>>>
> >
> > >> >>>
> >
> > >> >>
> >
> > >>
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