my announcement that I'm coming back to Phoenix turned into this? Alan, I didn't have any idea the news I was returning would become so devisive.. On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Lyle Tuttle wrote: > At 02:35 PM 8/2/2009, you wrote: > > One of the 2 former posts is typical "party diatribe"; you decide which! > > The irony of no health care in our economy is that unless you > constantly replace people (who die, fail to make it in employment or > become homeless) [while also keeping the subset of "healthy" > individuals completely separate] you win. > > The benefit of socialized health care includes research and > statistics, eradication of diseases like STD's, TB and childhood > illness, and control of the flu, and geratric survivial (which assists > our children's children socially). The system can support it, and in > 20 years the benefits in advances in technology, industry and spcial > stability are incredible. > > It's humane, and it's required to eradicate smoking, drug and alcohol > abuse (often self medication for physical and emotional illness) > alone. > > All systems in our society are inefficient - that doesn't mean we > don't need IT systems for instance, it means we need EFFICIENCY > (Canada as an example). > My father would turn over in his grave, since he also wanted a free > economy, but would agree that people are worth health care. > > > If we REALLY want to do better with health care, instead of spending > trillions of dollars to [blatant party diatribe follows] counsel you on > how to end your life (yes, the new plan proposes to do that if you are 65+ > every 5 years - mandatory), [end, blatant party diatribe] why not spend > some money here? > > http://www.canaryfoundation.org/index.cfm > > lyle > > > > Now, border control is another issue entirely! > > > On 8/2/09, Craig White wrote: > > On Sun, 2009-08-02 at 19:16 -0700, Vaughn Treude wrote: > >> Lisa Kachold wrote: > >> > On 7/30/09, JD Austin wrote: > >> > > >> >> The 'other' model isn't working any better. My wife works in an > Urgent > >> >> Care; tons of Canadians come here to get the health care they need. > I > >> >> think > >> >> the whole industry needs to be more competitive; most things in > health > >> >> care > >> >> shouldn't cost what they do. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > Inefficiency in preventative care, diagnostics, errors in surgery, the > >> > truth is incredibly expensive. > >> > > >> > But just because Canadians come here for care doesn't mean it's not > >> > working. > >> > > >> > >> If by "working", you mean the majority of Canadians people accept it, > >> and even think it's a good thing, I suppose it is. They're just very > >> lucky they have a "safety valve", that is, a large semi-free country > >> whose borders are within 100 miles of 90% of their population. > >> Single-payer is, IMHO, the biggest piece of economic foolishness ever > >> devised. Let's give an absolute monopoly to the most inefficient, > >> corrupt organization ever invented by humans (government.) As for the > >> notion that socialized medicine is cheaper, I don't believe it for a > >> second. Governments can shift their costs to other agencies; the > >> Pentagon does it all the time. I assume, for example, the cost of having > >> "premiums" collected by the CRA doesn't get counted in the balance > >> sheet. Not to mention the fact that a huge portion of the overhead costs > >> of private insurers in the US is red tape imposed by government > >> bureaucracies. > >> Not that I'm necessarily endorsing the current system. There were a lot > >> of good not-for-profit medical insurers in this country until Richard > >> Nixon changed the tax laws, causing a massive takeover by greedy HMO's. > >> I'd like to see a system of decentralized medical cooperatives with > >> for-profit companies as a supplement. > >> BTW, I don't blame the immigrants, but I do blame the lawyers. :-) > >> > >> > >> No offense, just my two cents. :-) > >> There, I feel so much better. > >> Vaughn > > ---- > > seeing as how the political discussions do not die off, I am going to > > sound off here. > > > > The entire premise of the Canadian health care system was to provide a > > single tier of medical coverage for all and no amount of wealth would > > provide a better level of health care. You cannot devise a system that > > is more fundamentally fair to everyone. > > > > The people who come here from Canada are doing elective surgeries either > > not covered by the health care system in Canada or prioritized in a > > manner that does not suit the person with money to pay elsewhere. > > > > The language that you use Vaughn is loaded and inaccurate... > > - we are not a safety valve, we provide elective medical care to those > > who want to pay and go elsewhere. > > > > - the issue of a monopolized health care run by the government happens > > to be that which is practiced in all other western nations. We spend > > more per capita on health care than any other industrialized nation and > > yet approximately 25% of our citizens do not have coverage. > > > > - the insurance companies do worse managing the health care than > > government could ever do. They practice murder by spreadsheet. They > > invent rules for exclusions. Someone in this country WITH health > > insurance goes bankrupt in this country every 30 seconds because of > > exclusions, deductibles, etc. > > > > - blaming the government red tape for the profits of insurers is absurd > > to its core. > > > > An American citizen visiting Canada can get free health care if needed. > > > > Any solution short of single-payer will fail and we will be back here > > again, with more people excluded from coverage by insurance companies, > > more people bankrupted by illness only because the companies with > > profits at stake...insurance companies and drug companies will spend > > unreasonable amounts of money to influence public opinion and elected > > candidates. > > > > Craig > > > > > > -- > > This message has been scanned for viruses and > > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > > believed to be clean. > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > -- > http://linuxgazette.net/165/kachold.html > (623)239-3392 > (503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- :-)~MIKE~(-: