Good point. Back on topic then. TSMC isn't a sweatshop. Taiwan has a different culture than we do and the corporate culture of TSMC is kinda half and half between US and Taiwan (say what you want about H1Bs, but when most of your decision makers are trained in the US, it has a cultural impact). Very top-down, knowledge-driven, and an expectation of unpaid overtime. How much of this culture will reach into the AZ fabs, we'll have to see. Our labor laws are a bit better. If you get in there early, maybe you could have an impact on the culture they adopt!
I can always tell when discussions have gone off into the weeds when the topic switches to assigning blame for things whose outcomes are entirely predictable over time.
Who's to blame indeed... We are - our political class.On 2023-06-07 18:25, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:QUESTION?
I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is
located
in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for
that
> technology?
Being old enough to be there and experience the start of
mass-production of copy/duplicate/counterfeit goods in the late 70's
and 80's, I'd say it all started with "Made in Taiwan" goods.
From my perspective from childhood on, it was in the form of knock-off
toys, brand name fashions, CD's, tools, you name it, it was everywhere
new and used, and it was all "Made in Taiwan". Not sure if it was them
simply getting the impetus to clone our stuff, or someone
surreptitiously asking them to do so to undercut established brands
from here. Either way, it set off the flood into our domestic markets
for crapgadgets.
Taiwan goods were always just a bit crappier, sort of mislabled, would
always break early if not out of box, would never fit quite right, but
hey it was a fraction of the price! In my teens my focus was tools
growing up to be a mechanic, and buying second-hand goods would always
see a direct clone of a $100 "Snap-On" brand high-end wrench as a $5
"Stack-On" clone from Taiwan. Harbor Freight made a name and business
selling knock-off American "Chicago Pneumatic" tools as "Central
Pneumatic" (many others too), all Made in Taiwan (now China), and
still does.
In the 80's, US orgs began asking Taiwan to actually make these things
for us including eventually semiconductors for us, even giving them
the plans, when they already had the clone game down pimp tight.
That's about the time China took over and now frowns upon mentioning
Taiwan as anything other than China, thus generically everything is
"Made in China" since then.
As we sent our engineering designs there to get bargains in
production, and taught them how to make our things including the
machinery. Eventually those copies as part of reverse engineering
became prototypes, continued to be made and improved on, if not in
quality, in profit margins to make them cheaper, even eventually
adapting into new products. As it was always explained to me, it
starts with them making "one for me, then one for themselves", and
later "one for me, two for themselves", ad nauseam.
Next thing you know you have Coach purses rolling out of the same
factory as the Couch purses that look the same sold in swap meets and
alleyways around the world, barely indistinguishable except the
receipt. Even worse now, you get things like selling counterfeit
Cisco switches to everything from government to education [1] using
modchips to bypass security on the clone [2], or buying pretty much
anything of Amazon is likely a counterfeit clone of a clone of a
clone.
Who's to blame indeed...
-mb
On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 3:29 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
On 2023-06-07 13:59, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote:
Generally, if I hear it from cable news, there's a good chance
it's
just someone drumming up support for something. In this case,
we'll
probably hear about some kind of H1B system to make sure the new
fabs
get all the people they need, etc. Same deal as when I was
working at
a company that got bought by Dell, and they failed to retain most
of
the new employees because they didn't have a structure that worked
with professionals. Suddenly you saw Michael Dell doing an
interview
on CNBC about the need to extend H1B 'cause they aren't getting
enough
workers. At the very least, there's plenty of incentive to drive
down
labor costs. And with the halts for new housing going out, there
is a
LOT of incentive to manipulate the market.
Am I being paranoid? I probably need to touch more grass.
Are you getting too paranoid? Maybe not. I quit following the news
because I think most are fearmongering and not talking and working
on
the real problems.
I personally do not like the H1B visas because I do not think they
are
necessary. If there is really a shortage of tech workers then why is
there not a few major tech universities? Why does Gates exploit the
H1B
and not create a really great tech university? And why do the
politicians allow all of this?
We have all we need right here in our 50 states, so why do we not do
things that benefit ourselves and possibly others?
These people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates, etc have forgotten where
they came from.
QUESTION?
I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is
located
in Taiwan . Where did they get that technology and who paid for
that
technology?
On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:15 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
Don't believe everything you read on the internet. I've read
that
Abraham Lincoln blames Donald Trump for giving the gun to John
Wilkes Booth.
On 6/6/23 17:45, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
Chip maker TSMC is moving to chandler and I have read they are a
sweatshop....
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[1] https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ceo-guilty-of-selling-counterfeit-cisco-devices-to-military-govt-orgs/
[2] https://hackaday.com/2023/02/01/counterfeit-cisco-hardware-bypasses-security-checks-with-modchips/
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