Subject: Re: Running Win10 after end of life

From: Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 13:51:30 -0700

Hi David,

On 2025-05-10 12:52, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> AFAIK, if you have Win 10 installed, there has always been a way to go 
> in and have it upgrade your machine to Win 11 once it was released at 
> no cost.
> 
> I think that started after they had so much trouble getting people to 
> move off of Win7.
> 
> The problem is that Win 11 requires something in the hardware that 
> tells Win 11 it can run. I’ve got two machines running Win 10 that 
> refuse to upgrade to Win 11. Paying for it won’t help.
> 
> You CAN buy an upgrade if you want. I’m sure they’ll happily take your 
> money.
> 
> As far as vulnerabilities go, how often do you update your Linux 
> machines?

Very Often for my desktop.  Maybe every 10 says.

On my test server it is probably every month.

For my production VPS not often enough.

> 
> Most routers have been running Linux forever. They reportedly have 
> several vulnerabiliites but nobody really think of “appliances” as 
> something that needs to be updated.
> 
> I read where some Govt agency like the FTC just busted a huge ring of 
> scammers who were running large botnets that work via routers.
> 
> Statistically speaking, Windows accounts for around 90% of all active 
> computers in the world. Why would scammers waste their time on the 
> others? That’s why MS is constantly issues security updates.
> 
> I get notices from Apple, but they’re just “updates”. Sometimes there’s 
> a note about it being something related to security, but usually it’s 
> some weird thing like if you’re running two obscure apps that have not 
> been updated in 10 years then you’re at risk.
> 
> When I’ve done work for companies, they provide me with a laptop that 
> has always run Windows, and they set it up to auto-update and warn us 
> that if we fiddle with it we’ll be fired. It’s their property and 
> that’s fine with me.
> 
> Personally, I don’t worry about it. I rarely use Windows, and when I do 
> it’s inside of a VM hosted by MacOS. If it gets infected, I’ll just 
> delete it and restore a backup. So far that hasn’t been necessary.
> 
> All of the machines have a firewall active and I only run email on one 
> machine. I’ve gotten some infections via js crap coming in from a web 
> page, but if you close the tab or browser before they trick you into 
> unlocking the door to get into your system, you’re safe.
> 
> The biggest vulnerabilities I see come via email… like anything that 
> has my name or email in the FROM field, and I get them daily.
> 
> A lot of them are also disguised as “critical security updates”. I 
> ignore them. I see a lot of these types of notices for Windows, but 
> very few for MacOS. How many do you guys typically get for Linux on a 
> weekly basis? Any?

Since I move to Kubuntu for my daily driver I get two type of scams.... 
1) the email that has my email for the sender, and 2) I've been 
receiving a FireFox Popup.

- Keithj

> 
> -David Schwartz
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 9, 2025, at 1:14 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
>> <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you David for this long response!!
>> 
>> You said "which is why they switched to free updates" at the very 
>> bottom of your post. Are you saying M$ provides free upgrades?
>> 
>> Your reply seems to point out the same issue that is approaching for 
>> Win10 - no support.
>> 
>> Why are you not concerned about stopping updates - doesn't that make 
>> your configuration vulnerable?
>> 
>> I did maybe 7 annual Payment Card Industry (PCI) certification on a 
>> shopping cart and every year there were more vulnerabilities to 
>> address.  Seems M$ and Apple would have the same issue.  Am I wrong?
>> 
>> - Keith
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2025-05-09 12:31, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>> Probably because there does not seem to be many Apple fans here.
>>> Apples policies have not changed in over a decade. They update their 
>>> OS every year, and generally speaking they don’t push out breaking 
>>> changes that aren’t tied to new hardware.
>>> The original 2014 platforms supported both 32-bit and 64-bit 
>>> software, but one of the OS updates removed support for 32-bits. I 
>>> will not upgrade to that OS so as to not lose access to several 
>>> 32-bit apps — they cost a lot to update.
>>> The next major change was adding support for Apples M-series CPUs. 
>>> The OS overlapped Intel and Mx for a couple of releases, then they 
>>> dropped Intel, so that’s as far as you can go with OS updates.
>>> Their official policy is they only support the last three releases. 
>>> But I continue to get update notices for my 2014 systems, although I 
>>> Just ignore them.
>>> The bigger problem, however, is when there are some hardware changes. 
>>> To generate apps for their platforms, you need to run XCode, and it 
>>> gets up dates regularly. It’s always updated for new OS releases as 
>>> well. You cannot publish new software with older versions of XCode.
>>> That means at some point when a vendor issues an update of an app you 
>>> have, it won’t run on an older OS version. I think that’s where their 
>>> “3 last OS releases” comes in, because XCode seems to enforce it.
>>> So if you don’t want to lose your apps, you just stop installing 
>>> updates especially if they want you to upgrade the OS.
>>> It’s worse on things that run iOS.
>>> If you know, you know, and stop installing updates. If you don’t, you 
>>> lose access to some stuff or you’re told you can’t update any 
>>> further.
>>> MS makes a lot of noise for their major transitions, which happen 
>>> every 5 years or so. They got jammed-up when so many people refused 
>>> to pay to upgrade Windows which is why they switched to free updates 
>>> — so they can force people to update their OS. Apple does the same 
>>> thing, but they don’t make a big deal about it.
>>> -David Schwartz
>>>> On May 9, 2025, at 7:16 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss 
>>>> <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>> Eric and everyone,
>>>> Win10 EOL is being taken as a big deal because it will no longer be 
>>>> supported, unless one buys extended support.
>>>> There is lots of talk about old Apple hardware however I am not 
>>>> hearing about any concern for lack of support.  Why is that?
>>>> - Keith
>>>> On 2025-05-08 13:41, Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>> David,
>>>>> You’re not the only one! My Mac mini is circa 2012 and it still
>>>>> functions well with its original OS, however, things are starting 
>>>>> to
>>>>> come to the point where I’m going to have to install LINUX on it.
>>>>> There’s some things I can’t do with it anymore. (some webpages
>>>>> won’t load properly which means they won’t load inside the screen
>>>>> reader either. However, I’m looking at the open core project, which
>>>>> will probably give me some options as far as updating is concerned.
>>>>> And yes, because I’m on an exceedingly limited income (disability),
>>>>> I am like you in that I cannot afford new equipment every time
>>>>> somebody forces us through the upgrade cycle.
>>>>> Anyway, that’s probably the beauty about Apple hardware is that it
>>>>> lasts a long time.
>>>>> Eric
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On May 8, 2025, at 12:01 PM, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss
>>>>>> <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>>> I truly appreciate your concern and encouragement to spend money
>>>>>> needlessly. I typically keep my hardware until it dies. If you
>>>>>> prefer to replace yours on a schedule even if it’s still working,
>>>>>> that’s up to you. So far, my Mac hardware has lasted far longer
>>>>>> than anything running Windows. I doubt it’s the OS.
>>>>>> (My first iMac died not long after the Apple Care expired — a chip
>>>>>> on the video card failed and they wanted nearly $700 to replace 
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> That didn’t seem like a wise investment, so I pulled out the RAM
>>>>>> and HD, and sold the carcass for nearly $400. I could have gotten
>>>>>> more than that by parting out the case, PS, LCD display, and logic
>>>>>> board separately, but that would have taken longer.)
>>>>>> However, I also know that Windows attracts more than an order of
>>>>>> magnitude more attempts to hack the system versus all other
>>>>>> platforms combined, so I CHOOSE to avoid it in large part for that
>>>>>> reason alone. I also prefer *nix to Windows as it’s far more
>>>>>> stable.
>>>>>> Value is measured over time. My experience with Apple’s hardware
>>>>>> is that it lasts far longer than anything I’ve had that runs
>>>>>> Windows. And it does not depreciate nearly as quickly. I’m quite
>>>>>> happy with the value I’ve gotten for my money.
>>>>>> -David Schwartz
>>>>>> On May 7, 2025, at 10:02 AM, Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss
>>>>>> <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>>> My wife's macbook died. Multiple times. Several were hard drive
>>>>>> failures. We replaced, with Apple-nazi sanctioned hardware. The
>>>>>> final death was when the graphics card stopped working. Could get 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> framebuffer on it. But anything more intensive? nope. Thing said
>>>>>> 'Newp!' So I said 'good-riddance'.
>>>>>> You can like whatever hardware you want. As for me and my house? I
>>>>>> don't run Apple crap.
>>>>>> Too much headache. Too much engineered obsolescence. Too much 
>>>>>> money
>>>>>> for what it's worth.
>>>>>> Even with the "better hardware" rationale for fanboys paying out
>>>>>> every time a new phone comes out which only improves slightly on a
>>>>>> camera, or better, adds a feature that android has had for years.
>>>>>> I wouldn't want to do any serious work on your old macs that are
>>>>>> ancient. Have you done any vulnerability scans on them? "Might 
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to look into that" ~Tony Stark, as he bonks the head of the bad 
>>>>>> guy
>>>>>> in Iron Man I.
>>>>>> Anyways, I'm not going to change your mind, and this conversation
>>>>>> grows ancient. Like your macs.
>>>>>> T.T.F.N.
>>>>>> On Tue, May 6, 2025 at 6:03 PM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss
>>>>>> <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>>> On May 4, 2025, at 7:36 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>>>>>> <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>>>>> I did not know there was a bias on the list.
>>>>>>> - Keith
>>>>>> It’s when people mention “the Apple tax” that the bias shows
>>>>>> up.
>>>>>> At least my older Macs don’t turn into door-stops when Apple stops
>>>>>> supporting them. Two of them cannot be upgraded to the latest
>>>>>> versions of MacOS, but they are fully functional.
>>>>>> From all of the warnings I’m reading about Windows 10, I’m
>>>>>> really not sure what to expect. I have two computers that I can’t
>>>>>> upgrade to Win 11.
>>>>>> -David Schwartz
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